This post was originally written in 2017 and has been completely updated to reflect the changes in both Zoom and WebinarJam.
“Which is the best webinar tool?”
I get asked this question a lot. If you have ever felt overwhelmed by choice, I think this post is going to help you because I’m going to break down the pros and cons to help you figure out which is the best webinar tool and then also declare MY personal winner.
Why is it so hard to choose a webinar tool?
I think it’s because – let’s face it – most webinar tools are kinda spendy. They aren’t free and, if they ARE free, they just don’t seem to cut the mustard in one way or another. Add on top of that the wide variety of features (this one has A but not B, this one has A and B but doesn’t have C) and the whole webinar tool shopping process can make your head spin.
First Off: How Do I Compare Webinar Tools?
With all online techie tools, I am looking for 5 things:
- Relative ease-of-use
- Ability to do what you need it to do, without a bunch of confusing excess
- Reasonable cost for someone who is just getting started as an online entrepreneur
- Good customer support (I like companies that stand behind their products)
- Plays well with others (i.e. easy enough to integrate your tool with other tools in your online biz)
Today I’m talking about Zoom vs. WebinarJam. Both of these tools meets all 5 of these criteria to some extent or they wouldn’t be on the list today at all. Neither of them totally knock it out of the park on all 5 fronts, though I do have a favorite and I’ll talk about that in a sec.
(Full disclosure: I’m also an affiliate for both tools, which means if you end up checking either one out and subsequently becoming a customer, I may earn a commission and you of course don’t pay anything extra. As you know I only ever recommend tools I use personally and love.)
Our First Contender: Zoom (updated Sept. 2019)
God, I love Zoom. I recently ran a telesummit with 20 speakers and I did almost every single one on Zoom. Very easy to use and – wait for it – free! Can’t beat that.
At the free level, not surprisingly, Zoom does have limitations:
- No integration with other tools
- Limited to 40 minutes when you have more than 2 people on the line (not ideal for webinars)
If you bump up to the $15/month plan (the most affordable paid tool on the docket today), one big issue is taken care of: You can have up to 100 people on the webinar for as long as you want. For a lot of us, 100 live seats is more than enough, especially when you’re just getting started.
Unfortunately, this is also where in the Zoom vs. WebinarJam debate, Zoom starts to fall a bit flat for me. It’s still very easy to use but if you want to be able to really run more full-featured webinars (e.g. you actually want people to have to sign up so you can capture their email address and you want to send them reminder emails and sales emails afterwards), you’re going to have to bump up and grab the Zoom Webinar package, which is $40/month on top of the $15 basic plan. So now we’re at $55/month.
At the $55/month level you also have more control over your users, such as not having their little video thumbnails showing in the webinar room. You also have access to one super badass feature: the ability to stream to Facebook Live. For me this is a biggie: You can stream both into Facebook Groups AND onto Facebook Pages. I love that. If it weren’t for that, I would have a hard time getting behind Zoom Webinar. But that’s a pretty cutting-edge feature, especially given the Facebook updates in 2018 that made it difficult if not impossible for some webinar providers to stream onto Facebook. Thanks, Zoom!
Three things about Zoom that get my goat a little:
#1 – Their “integrations” kind of suck. In order to even use integrations (like, say, you want Zoom to shoot registrants over to your email marketing tool), you have to pay for Zoom Webinar, but even then the integrations are very limited for online entrepreneurs, unless you are willing to use Zapier. (If you have to use Zapier and you don’t know what that is, definitely read on about WebinarJam because it’s cheaper and less of a headache in this department.)
In other words, if you’re an online entrepreneur and you’re wondering, “Does Zoom integrate with X?” the answer is almost definitely no, not unless you’re willing to use Zapier too.
#2 – Upgrading to Zoom webinar DOES NOT GET YOU MORE ATTENDEES. You’re still limited to 100. You get the webinar features and streaming to Facebook Live ability, but if you want more than 100 people to be able to attend, it’s $140/month to get 500 viewers… and it keeps going up from there.
#3 – Participants have to download Zoom’s software to be able to watch webinars. It’s a minor barrier, especially given that lots and lots and lots of people know, love, and use Zoom now (so they probably already have the software on their computer)… but it’s worth noting because it can harm your webinar show-up rates when they get that potentially alarming little pop-up that’s like “you have to download this before you can watch the webinar.”
To Recap: For $15/month you get 100 people and unlimited meeting time but not much else. For an additional $40, you get a more full-featured webinar platform that includes Facebook Livestreaming, the ability to hide attendees from public view (this is helpful if you are running small webinars and you don’t want the other attendees to see that you only have a handful of people on the line), plus other elements you’d expect from a webinar platform, like the ability to register and special Q&A sections.
Here’s where you start your free Zoom account. (Check it out and then you can always upgrade to the $15 or $55 version if you like it.)
Up Next: WebinarJam (updated Sept. 2019)
I use WebinarJam a lot. It’s my go-to webinar tool. Recently WebinarJam just overhauled their infrastructure and made some big changes, some of which I’m excited about and some… not so much.
If you want to check out a 60-day WebinarJam trial for $1, click here to do that.
So as far as my 5 criteria above:
- Easy to use? Check.
- Does what it needs to without overcomplicating things or making you pay for bells and whistles you don’t need? Check.
- Reasonable cost? Yes – I think so. More on that in a sec.
- Good customer support? Yep. They even have a weekly webinar where you can ask questions live.
- Integrates easily with other tools? Totally. (It does this right out of the box, no need to upgrade or use Zapier or anything.)
WebinarJam’s interface is really intuitive. You go through a step-by-step process to set things up, easy-peasy, and they even have a quicker way where you can set up a basic webinar in just a minute or two.
The current price for WebinarJam is $479/year. Yikes, right? I know that sounds like a hefty price tag. Buuuuut if you do the math, $479 divided by 12 equals about $40 per month, which actually makes it $15 cheaper per month than Zoom. That’s a big factor for me.
$479 gets you 500 attendees. The next price jump is $783 and that gets you 1,000 attendees, which is steeper but if you’re getting 1,000 attendees on your webinars you’re probably not too concerned about $783/year. 🙂
What about the $15/month Zoom? This is a good question – obviously if you just buy the $15/month Zoom (Zoom Pro), then you’re spending way less than you are on WebinarJam. However, at that point you’re really not even comparing apples and oranges, it’s more like apples and… firetrucks? Apples and Screwdrivers? Something like that. 🙂
Where WebinarJam really shines is in the fact that it was designed for marketing and selling on the Internet. They have gorgeous opt-in templates you can customize easily. They have this amazing little pop-up sales box that you can have appear just at the moment you want it to so people have a buy button to click on. They even have built-in urgency and scarcity tools, as well as real-time sales tracking (so you can show X units sold, right there on your webinar). Here’s what it looks like:
It’s really cool. These features are THE reason I became a WebinarJam customer.
There’s also nothing for your webinar attendees to download and install, which I like a lot.
Aaaand another one of my favorite features is how WebinarJam lets you do “video injections” – so if you do have something prerecorded, such as a testimonials reel you want to put in at the end, or if you want to tweak your webinar offer and not do that part live, you totally can.
Where WebinarJam falls down – at least for now – is with Facebook Livestreaming.
For awhile, I was so happy. WebinarJam could stream to Facebook Pages AND Facebook Groups.
Then Facebook changes took that away. Waaaah! I have been waiting for over a year for WebinarJam to bring that back, but nope. Sigh. So if streaming to Facebook Live is important to you, WebinarJam won’t help you anymore. I believe they’re trying to get it back in the mix but no word about if or when that will happen.
The workaround I use is simply to use Facebook’s free native tool. It’s not as full-featured as WebinarJam of course but it obviously works just fine! And, if you want to livestream to YouTube Live, you totally can via WebinarJam – that features works just fine. 🙂
Here’s my link to get a 60-day trial of WebinarJam for $1 (no need to drop $479 till you’re sure you like it).
Zoom vs. WebinarJam: Which is the Best Webinar Tool for You?
The answer to this question might feel like a bit of a cop-out: it really does depend on your needs and priorities.
I use the free version of Zoom for my one-on-one coaching and when I’m conducting interviews. It is awesome for that.
I use the $15 version of Zoom for some of my group coaching stuff because it’s easy for attendees to unmute themselves and talk (they can do it on WebinarJam too but there are a few more steps for attendees).
I use WebinarJam for pretty much everything else. It has cool sales and marketing doo-dads built right into the platform and no one has to download anything to attend your webinars. WebinarJam really, really excels at helping you actually SELL stuff via your webinars, whereas Zoom has more of a generic conference-room kinda vibe. With WebinarJam you can:
- Run webinars to sell stuff
- Rub webinars to teach stuff
- Up to 500 attendees at the base level (to get 500 attendees with Zoom you’re looking at $155/month)
- Have secure webinar rooms with password protection if you wish
- Help keep attention with a virtual whiteboard, polls and live chat (Zoom has polls and chat but no whiteboard)
- Customize ready-to-go templates for sign-up pages, thank-you pages, and even waiting room pages
- Inject pre-recorded video for perfect presentations
- Automatically record every webinar
- Communicate pre and post webinar with built-in emails to remind people to show, watch the replay, and buy
- Track your sign-ups, show-ups and even sales and engagement during your webinar
- Replays can be automatically created and sent out so you don’t have to do anything
- Charge for your webinars if you wish
- Add countdown timers to your webinars to encourage people to act quickly
- Add “buy now” buttons and product images (my favorite)
- Allow people to download a handout
- Upload your slides so it’s easy to run your presentation
- Integrate with the most popular tools for online entrepreneurs, so WebinarJam “talks” to everything else easily
Complete features here.
So if you’re thinking Zoom Webinar ($55/month) vs. WebinarJam (less than $40/month), I can’t think of one reason you’d choose Zoom Webinar – unless you don’t want to do Facebook Lives right on Facebook but would prefer to stream them in.
The only reason I can think of why you’d choose Zoom vs. WebinarJam would be if you wanted to run webinars and were on a crazy-tight budget. In that case, you’d pick the $15/month Zoom option (called “Zoom Pro”). You’d get 100 attendees and unlimited webinar time, which is what you need. Everyone’s thumbnails would be there but at least you’d get to do your webinars super-cheaply!
You wouldn’t get other webinar stuff, like registration pages, marketing tools (I just love WebinarJam’s “buy now” button that pops up at a time of your choosing), the ability to not see everyone’s faces on your webinar, etc.
However, if you just want to run basic webinars, Zoom’s $15/month option should do you just fine until you’re ready to uplevel. It saves you $300 a year, which isn’t a bad thing. But I would definitely take a look at the price point of what you’re selling and WebinarJam’s ability to help you sell that thing vs. Zoom. If WebinarJam can help you sell even ONE extra thing, it’s probably a no-brainer for you to go with WebinarJam.
Check out Zoom’s packages here.
Check out WebinarJam here and get a $1 trial for 60 days.
I really hope you’ve found this post helpful. If you have, please do 2 things for me: (1) leave a comment below and (2) share this post with 1 or 2 people you think would really benefit. Thank you!
I appreciate you,
Kathryn
Great article, Kathryn! Really insightful review – and it matches my experience with both platforms going back, what, 5 or more years?
Of late, WJ has bee pretty flakey. I was really sad to hear of the passing of Andy Jenkins as he was such a spirited face of the company.
I’ve watched webinars lately where I know the person had fast internet, plugged in, and background apps shut down – and it was hard to watch. A new frame every 5 or 10 seconds – but perfect audio! Turns out she was using the YouTube integration instead of the recommended setting.
Thanks for publishing this.
Barry oh gosh I had no idea Andy had passed. So sad.
That’s pretty shocking results about the webinars you’ve watched, too. I still use and love WJ but I have been investigating Easy Webinar. It’s double the cost but it also includes evergreen. Apparently it’s no-lag streaming. The interface is not nearly as easy to use but yep… when WJ lost its streaming to Facebook Groups feature I started to get serious about looking elsewhere.
Thanks for the great article, I am on the Free trial of Webinar Jam and I have some video injections in my webinar. But when I was in test mode after the pre-recorded video was played…the “attendee” only say black and couldn’t reconnect. ( I was testing the attendee on my nearby iphone.
Have you had these problems or do you think its’ because I’m in test mode. Would love your feedback.
Stephanie, sorry! Just seeing this. I doubt test mode would cause that but it’s definitely possible. It’s most likely that on your smart phone it may not have worked properly. On a phone videos don’t usually play embedded so perhaps you would have had to click on the black screen? Hmmm…
How does free conference call stack up to zoom and webinar jam on your rating scale?
Thanks,
Reñee
Hi Reñee! FreeConferenceCall is cool and I do use it at times. One cool thing about FreeConferenceCall is it doesn’t require a great Internet connection. What this means is that you wind up with a less-great recording BUT it will work if you are on the road. I taught stuff to clients using that tool from Disney World public WIFI, Starbucks parking lots, McDonald’s etc while I was on the road for a 5-month camping trip. I would never really want to SELL stuff from this tool because it just doesn’t do enough to help you capture leads and the quality isn’t amazing, but it does work in a pinch!
I think that the webinar would fit my purposes better. However the $15.00 Zoom fits my pocket much better. Thank you so much for explaining these two systems . I am truly a novice when it comes to technology.
We all start somewhere Gloria!!
Very helpful comparison, with great details. Thank you so much!
My pleasure Evelyn 🙂
thanks for this post
Great article!
Can you please help me because I do not understand all the terminology on the WebinarJam website?
Can you use WebinarJam for simple online meetings (eg demos, sign-ups or training) 1-on-1 or 1-to-not-many? We currently use Zoom for meetings (and webinars) but are very frustrated with the webinar product.
We have a fixed URL for a “recurring” meeting that people get automatically after booking in a meeting via Calendly. Does Webinar have the same feature (ie a URL that does not need a registration via WebinarJam).
Thanks Gavin! Zoom is best for meetings, as in team meetings, or 1-on-1 coaching. If you are doing a true webinar with quite a few attendees, WebinarJam is a much better tool. It’s really designed for selling via webinar and is a bit cumbersome for just regular meetings. WebinarJam DOES have a link that does not require regular registration, but if that’s what you’re looking for, Zoom should fit your purposes and you shouldn’t need Zoom Webinar, just Zoom Pro for that.
I appreciate your thorough evaluation and comparison of the two products. I work with several coaches who have been using Zoom and see that Webinar Jam may be the better choice for them. Have you considered running Webinar Jam as a service for entrepreneurs who might be interested in outsourcing this function?
Hi Matthew! Thank you for taking the time to write a comment. We don’t provide done-for-you services outside of our Clarity Momentum Success membership program. I really want everyone to have the correct strategies & tools they need to succeed. These types of services are available to our members, though.
Awesome! Thanks for a refreshingly clear and honest post. 🙂 It also made me smile, a good combination.
All the best!
/S-A
Thanks Kathryn, fantastic insights and breakdown of the features in simple terms, appreciate it!
Great Review Kathryn!!!!!
I will definitly check out your $1 trail.
Also can you please tell me a little more about the Affillite program please. Thaks Wayne
Happy to help Wayne. Do you mean WebinarJam’s affiliate program? It’s run through Kartra (another product of theirs). They provide you with lots of links and creatives to help promote. I don’t really use them because I’m not hardcore with promoting them – I mostly share the affiliate link via blog posts like this one and in conversations with clients who are looking for a webinar tool designed for Internet marketers.
I’ve been debating this forever. I keep coming back to google hangouts embedded on my site with Chattango for comments. It works fine, but as I’m looking at running webinars regularly, say twice a month, I’ll be wanting something more robust. Although I’ve read many articles, this one is leading me to Webinar Jam. When I’m ready, I’ll use your link. Many thanks!
Hi Linda! So nice to see your name here. Thanks for leaving a comment. 🙂 I definitely appreciate you using my link and if you have any questions for getting set up let me know. Happy to help. I use WebinarJam to run my promotional webinars and also my trainings for private clients. It gets a ton of use in my business.
Great article.
When I signed up – it gave me some options for upsells. Which I’m thinking I didn’t need but when you do a 2.0 of this article, can you give a breakdown of those upsells?
(BTW: the “no thanks” link on the final upsell was WICKED hard to find. Not your problem, but knowing the pros/cons of the upsells will be really helpful.)
Yes! Thank you so much for the tip Kim xoxo
Hi Kathrin,
thanks for the good article..
Please let me ask these questions / give my summary:
a) What is your take on technical stability of Zoom versus WebinarJam
b) What plan with which company would you use for web summits with 10 speakers and 500 or more listeners? Are there one time solutions? .. i will only do that once or twice a year and dont want to contract a monthly installment plan.
c) You said you used Zoom free version for your tele-summit with 20 speakers, yet it is limited to 40min. in the free version and in the 15USD version you can only have 100 participants. I dont get it… Did you use Zoom and use screen capture software to record the interviews and then display on other website pre-recorded? Can you please help me understand that!
thx alex
Hi Alex! Awesome questions. Zoom and WebinarJam are both super-stable. WebinarJam used to be less so but they overhauled their platform a few years ago and it’s awesome now, though be advised that people are having to livestream and don’t have to download any software (like they do with Zoom), so if their Internet connection is only so-so (or they’re watching Netflix and surfing Facebook at the same time as your webinar), they may experience audio/video issues.
For my summit, yes, I recorded the interviews using Zoom. Then I used WebinarJam’s video injection feature (you can play pre-recorded video into a live webinar). Zoom has built-in recording software (though you have to remember to hit record). WebinarJam does too and it records automatically.
If you’re running summits once or twice a year, there isn’t really a one-time solution. You could sign up for either one and then quit again. Or you can just pay the one-time annual fee.
MANY thanks for that trial link. Lifesaver.
My pleasure Jason 🙂
Great content Kathryn!
Thanks a lot for sharing with us 🙂
You’re welcome Petra and thanks for taking the time to write a comment – I appreciate it.
I was almost ready to buy Zoom Pro (all the features I need and EXCELLENT customer service (a live team member who I could see and talk to, gave me a great demo) but I stopped short because I need an evergreen webinar function where the recording of my live webinar can autoplay when subsequent users register and it will LOOK live although it’s not. Zoom did not have this feature. I would have to manually start the recording. Does Webinarjam offer this option?
You’re right Celeste… Zoom Pro doesn’t have anything like that (not geared towards marketing at all) and actually neither does WebinarJam, but their sister product, EverWebinar, does. I have a $1 60-day trial for them too – link: https://kathryn.krtra.com/t/kgxWh7oPjDoQ (also an affiliate link – price is the same but I may earn a small commission if you stick with them). EverWebinar is the easiest platform I’ve seen. Other options I’ve found are pricier and/or way more complicated. Let me know if you try it – and if you like it.
Hi I wish I would have see this a few days ago for the free trial… I bought the webinarjam package. Unfortunately I have not had a easy time setting it up because I cannot figure out how to get YouTube configured to work with it! Even after watching several how to videos!
Hi Toni! It’s much easier and more stable to use their JamCast option. Have you tried that? It’s a huge upgrade over the YouTube integration.
what about webignition? seems i have seen many comparrisons where it wins – any thoughts?
Hey Nate, great question. WebinarIgnition is a WordPress plugin, which means you’ve got to have a site set up and be proficient with WordPress, vs. WebinarJam which is a standalone platform. Also as far as I can tell WebinarIgnition doesn’t have its own live-streaming service. Instead you have to use Google Hangouts or something similar, which can sometimes (but not always) mean stability issues. The other feature of WJ which I use all the time that WI doesn’t have is integration with Facebook Live, both groups and pages.
Really good advice. And you are up to date! I will start following you and follow your advice. I took the 1 dollar offer on Webinar Jam and when I googled Zoom versus Webinar Jam your text was the best. Best regards from Sweden.
Thanks Lisel! xo You’ll love WebinarJam.
This was SO helpful, Kathryn … just what I needed! Thank you for writing such a clearly stated, informative article. xo
Hey Stacey, thanks for taking a minute to leave a comment! You made my day. 🙂
Thanks, Kathryn. I appreciate the comparison. That being said, you state, “No need to drop $479 until you are sure you like it”. However, when I click on your link, I am taken to a page on WebinarJam in which I have to provide my credit card info. I am hoping that I will only be charged $1 for the 60-Day trial before being charged the additional $479 (as your article specifies). The way they have set up the page, it looks like they may charge me for both.
Hey Terri! When you click the link you should actually be taken to their home page that has a black box near the top where it says there’s a $1 trial, and then somewhere there should be a button that says, “Click Here to Start Your Trial.” Once you click that, you’ll be taken to the page where they’ll take your credit card info to pay for the $1 trial, then after 60 days if you keep your WebinarJam membership, that’s when they’ll bill you the $479. Hope that helps!
Thank you for this great article. I have been leaning towards WebinarJam for a while. Though I am currently using Zoom ($15/mth) cause I just need to get started.
But you have confirmed my thinking… WebinarJam is the longterm solution.
Just one question. How is WebinarJam’s customer support? It is nearly impossible to contact them. Zoom actually called me on the phone. WebinarJam??
Hey Steve! I actually love WebinarJam’s support. They have a Facebook Group with really quick responses (sometimes just in minutes). They also have a support email and a weekly webinar where you can ask questions and get training right from them.
I am located in Hong Kong, Asia.
Is there any issues related for the speed for both software?
Hey Ringo! There is no software to download – everything is online. As long as you have a decent internet connection you’ll be fine. WebinarJam recommends a wired connection but I run all my webinars over WIFI, 1 floor away from our router, and as long as I don’t have Dropbox syncing or my husband watching Netflix or something, there are no issues at all.
Hi Kathryn – thanks for a great article. My main concern with webinarjam is the quality of the internet connection. I’m in Australia on ADSL and use an Ethernet cable and I want to start running live webinars and everything is pointing to Webinarjam but what are the chances of it breaking up during a live session? (I know that’s hard for you to answer but based on your experience). Also – what’s the quality of recordings? THANKS, Clare
Clare if you have a hardwired connection that’s your best bet. No question livestreaming is Internet resource heavy! WebinarJam gives you 60 days to check it out for just $1 with that special link up there, so if you’re concerned I’d do some testing and if it doesn’t work, cancel during your trial period.
Thank you for this information. The features comparison is exactly what I need. I just canceled my Zoom Pro contract. I believe Webinar Jam will be a perfect fit for my business needs. Any suggestions for first-time users? I am thinking about making a webinar available for an upcoming event. Great article!
Glad to have helped Lynne. 🙂 I think you’ll enjoy the extra features and $$ savings too. Once you’re in you’ll see how easy it is to use, not a big learning curve even if you’re a first-time user. That being said, do give yourself the opportunity to practice with a test webinar (another built-in feature of WebinarJam) and get accustomed to the interface so on webinar day, you’re not feeling brand new to all the buttons and gizmos. 🙂
Thank you kathryn – you helped me decide and I took the webinarjam trial
Keep me posted on what you think David!
Great article and very much appreciated.
Thanks Randy! 🙂
Great comparison post, Kathryn! Any idea of the limit of attendees for Webinar Jam?
Update! Joyce I had originally told you unlimited attendees but in fact it’s 500 – just found that out. You can upgrade for an incredibly low $ amount if you need more, like $20 a year or something crazy. But that’s 500 live attendees, meaning that you would need to likely have over 2,000 registrants to hit that 500 person cap. The idea of course is that if you need more than 500 attendees, it’s a no-brainer to upgrade because you have the visibility of someone with a decent income in their business.
Correction. 😉
ADD-ON PRICE PRICING: https://www.webinarjam.com/add-on/
* REGULAR PRICING ($475/year ($39/mth)) includes: 3 presenters & 500 attendees
* OPTIONAL: 5 presenters & 2,000 attendees: additional $19.99/mth or $199/year (EXTRA!)
* OPTIONAL: 6 presenters & 5,000 attendees: additional $59.99/mth or $599/year (EXTRA!)
Hey thank you! I must have a grandfathered package. Will update 🙂
this was super helpful thanks! i signed up for everwebinar for the $1 for two months deal and then realized that i LOVE live webinars with video vs. slide shares. i already have the upgraded zoom but was curious about the apples to apples comparison. i think i’mg going to do the free $1 trial run and see how it goes :)))
Hey Lauren thank you so much for your comment! I have a special place in my heart for live stuff. I think you’ll be blown away by the differences. Zoom is pretty awesome but if you are specifically looking to sell from webinars, I don’t think you can beat WebinarJam.
Great article! I was trying to decide which software I wanted to use for Coaching Webinars, and your article provided a great wealth of information.
Glad it was helpful Derrick! Any qs please let me know. 🙂 For one-on-one coaching it’s hard to go wrong with Zoom.
As a complete rookie to these programs… Thank you! Our current client base is in China and using their classroom software is a huge pain… I can’t read the controls. Wife is Chinese, but not tech literate. 🙁
One click joining is critical for my attendees and I do have MailChimp already.
I’m not sure you could get it down to literally one click but pretty darn close… There’s no software to download so that’s a big help if your crowd has a techie barrier of any kind. Thanks for checking in Kelly!
Great article Kathryn!